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	<title>Comments on: The True Legacies of R.A. Dickey and Josh Thole</title>
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	<link>http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2016/11/03/the-true-legacies-of-r-a-dickey-and-josh-thole/</link>
	<description>Comprehensive coverage of the Toronto Blue Jays</description>
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		<title>By: Arjonn</title>
		<link>http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2016/11/03/the-true-legacies-of-r-a-dickey-and-josh-thole/#comment-16113</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Arjonn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2016 15:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Most fans I know set their expectations for Dickey optimistically, thinking / hoping he&#039;d produce numbers like his 2010-2012 self despite moving not only from the NL to the AL, but to the AL East with its hitter-friendly parks and power-laden teams. I&#039;ve always wondered what the Jays expected.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most fans I know set their expectations for Dickey optimistically, thinking / hoping he&#8217;d produce numbers like his 2010-2012 self despite moving not only from the NL to the AL, but to the AL East with its hitter-friendly parks and power-laden teams. I&#8217;ve always wondered what the Jays expected.</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Peaslee</title>
		<link>http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2016/11/03/the-true-legacies-of-r-a-dickey-and-josh-thole/#comment-16041</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Evan Peaslee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2016 20:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=7759#comment-16041</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for caring so much Kenii and for a well thought out argument.

There&#039;s a lot of arguments to be made about what propelled them into the postseason the past two seasons. I&#039;m not inferring that Dickey or Thole are chief among them, although I believe their contributions, in particular Dickey, played a pivotal and understated role with the club that was a key cog in a starting rotation that was ultimately the best in the AL.

What I am saying, however, is that without the hype behind those trades in the 2012 off-season (Buehrle included) and the massive swing in attendance and TV numbers the corresponding moves that have formed the present day Blue Jays core doesn&#039;t take place. And although Dickey and Thole underperformed to the expectations of them from the trade to Toronto, their off-field impact far outweighs their personal on-field accomplishments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for caring so much Kenii and for a well thought out argument.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a lot of arguments to be made about what propelled them into the postseason the past two seasons. I&#8217;m not inferring that Dickey or Thole are chief among them, although I believe their contributions, in particular Dickey, played a pivotal and understated role with the club that was a key cog in a starting rotation that was ultimately the best in the AL.</p>
<p>What I am saying, however, is that without the hype behind those trades in the 2012 off-season (Buehrle included) and the massive swing in attendance and TV numbers the corresponding moves that have formed the present day Blue Jays core doesn&#8217;t take place. And although Dickey and Thole underperformed to the expectations of them from the trade to Toronto, their off-field impact far outweighs their personal on-field accomplishments.</p>
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		<title>By: KENII</title>
		<link>http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2016/11/03/the-true-legacies-of-r-a-dickey-and-josh-thole/#comment-16033</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KENII]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2016 16:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=7759#comment-16033</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First, let me just say that I agree with the underlying premise that R.A. Dickey and Josh Thole were important to the Jays&#039; success. That being said, the argument being made for them here is a bit of a stretch. There&#039;s a difference between correlation and causation. 

Yes, both players were part of the four years in which the landscape of Blue Jays baseball altered drastically. So were Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion. Heck, in the two seasons they made the ALCS, they had pitchers like Marcus Stroman and Marco Estrada. Dickey and Thole may have kicked off the process, but with the logic employed above, one could argue that Stroman and Estrada actually got the Jays into the playoffs!

If we&#039;re talking about the blockbuster trades that were part of the &quot;win now&quot; mentality, then why leave out Mark Buerhle? He was with the team for most of the same stretch as well, but performed better. Don&#039;t forget Josh Johnson! He was also part of the hype that started to attract more audiences...he just didn&#039;t play up to it.

&quot;One thing’s for sure though, the last two magical runs to the postseason don’t happen without them or the trade that preceded their arrival.&quot;
No, that&#039;s not a sure thing whatsoever. It&#039;s purely hypothetical and highly presumptuous.

Dickey and Thole helped; no doubt about that, but their importance is a bit overstated here. It&#039;s far-fetched to suggest that they were pivotal simply because they were the first pieces acquired as part of the &quot;win-now&quot; mentality. Are we honestly to believe that Dickey was better at drawing an audience than Josh Donaldson has? Did the &quot;presence&quot; of Thole really matter more than the presence of, say, Russell Martin? If we&#039;re seriously evaluating a player&#039;s off-field performance as well, then are they really better than Troy Tulowitzki? 

I&#039;m grateful for their contributions, but of course I am. What player who can remain at the Major League level isn&#039;t an important contributor to their team in some way on and/or off the field?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, let me just say that I agree with the underlying premise that R.A. Dickey and Josh Thole were important to the Jays&#8217; success. That being said, the argument being made for them here is a bit of a stretch. There&#8217;s a difference between correlation and causation. </p>
<p>Yes, both players were part of the four years in which the landscape of Blue Jays baseball altered drastically. So were Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion. Heck, in the two seasons they made the ALCS, they had pitchers like Marcus Stroman and Marco Estrada. Dickey and Thole may have kicked off the process, but with the logic employed above, one could argue that Stroman and Estrada actually got the Jays into the playoffs!</p>
<p>If we&#8217;re talking about the blockbuster trades that were part of the &#8220;win now&#8221; mentality, then why leave out Mark Buerhle? He was with the team for most of the same stretch as well, but performed better. Don&#8217;t forget Josh Johnson! He was also part of the hype that started to attract more audiences&#8230;he just didn&#8217;t play up to it.</p>
<p>&#8220;One thing’s for sure though, the last two magical runs to the postseason don’t happen without them or the trade that preceded their arrival.&#8221;<br />
No, that&#8217;s not a sure thing whatsoever. It&#8217;s purely hypothetical and highly presumptuous.</p>
<p>Dickey and Thole helped; no doubt about that, but their importance is a bit overstated here. It&#8217;s far-fetched to suggest that they were pivotal simply because they were the first pieces acquired as part of the &#8220;win-now&#8221; mentality. Are we honestly to believe that Dickey was better at drawing an audience than Josh Donaldson has? Did the &#8220;presence&#8221; of Thole really matter more than the presence of, say, Russell Martin? If we&#8217;re seriously evaluating a player&#8217;s off-field performance as well, then are they really better than Troy Tulowitzki? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m grateful for their contributions, but of course I am. What player who can remain at the Major League level isn&#8217;t an important contributor to their team in some way on and/or off the field?</p>
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